Unique Contributions

The new people trends post Covid - a perspective

• Rose Thomson & Emili Budell-Rhodes • Season 3 • Episode 4

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As a global organisation with 33,000 people across 40 countries, how do we make sure we continue to attract, retain and develop talent? How do we adapt to new employee expectations? How do we create a working environment that is inclusive, embraces diversity of thought and allows people to have long and rewarding careers? 

In this episode, Rose Thomson, RELX chief human resources officer, shares with YS Chi her perspective on some of the big people themes that organisations need to think about to be successful, from the role of the manager to allowing people to have career changes.

Also in this episode, YS Chi speaks with Emili Budell-Rhodes, lead evangelist of engineering culture at LexisNexis Legal & Professional. Emili is an example of what is possible when organisations invest in women in technology. YS explores what made her pivot from corporate responsibility to technology, how she feels about her career change, what enabled it and the satisfaction she derives from it. 

This podcast is brought to you by RELX.

YS Chi:

The unique contributions podcast is brought to you by RELX. Find out more about us by visiting RELX.com.

Rose Thomson:

You know what inspires us and what motivates us at work, the more you have that self awareness about what you're good at and what you're interested in, the more you can push yourself forward for projects and new roles and to really work on developing those skills and experiences.

YS Chi:

Hello, and welcome to series three of unique contributions a RELX podcast where we bring you closer to some of the most interesting people from around our business. I'm YS Chi, and I'll be exploring with my guests some of the biggest issues that matter to our society. In this series, I also want to investigate the issue of trust. How can we build trust in data and technology and help create a world that works for everyone? Today, my first guest is Rose Thomson. RELX's Chief Human Resources Officer. For years Rose has worked tirelessly to improve employee experience. We at RELX are fortunate to have her experience, wisdom and skill set. Rose has joined our team during the unusual period of the pandemic lockdowns and border closings. As you know, RELX is a truly global company with colleagues scattered all over the world, and Rose had the added challenges of having to onboard herself remotely. And she did this so professionally. Welcome, Rose. Nice to have you.

Rose Thomson:

Thank you YS.

YS Chi:

Earlier this year, you wrote an insightful article on the big people themes emerging this year and beyond. You listed them as Rise of the manager, Diversity to inclusion, purpose to inspire, self driven growth and differently rewarding. Can you tell us a little bit about those key themes and why you thought it was important to share them now?

Rose Thomson:

I think YS, the whole nature of the labour market, and expectations of employees and future employees have fundamentally changed over the last number of years. And I think that the themes that I raised in that article are the things that really are going to matter in the future in terms of an employer being able to attract the very best talent and keep that very best talent. And if we don't focus on those things, as an organisation, we will do ourselves a disservice and thereby doing our customers a disservice actually.

YS Chi:

Rose to start with, the concept of, you know, the rise of the manager is relatively new. Can you elaborate a little bit on that, please?

Rose Thomson:

There's an old adage, I'm sure you're familiar with that is employees don't leave organisations, they leave managers. And I think that's very true, actually. And I see managers playing a far more important role and a very different role to one that they have perhaps historically needed to play. I think we're asking them today to do things better, faster, and cheaper. We're asking them to attract and retain and develop the very best people. We're asking them to be responsible, or at least aware of their team's needs, their mental health, diversity and inclusion, the role is much broader than just actually being a taskmaster, and making sure work gets done. And I think that that role, if we do that well, can really impact the culture of the organisation, it can really impact the engagement and motivation of the team. And we need to be able to equip managers, I think, with the clarity in terms of what we're asking them to do, and what their role is as a manager, and then give them the tools to be able to do that as easily and as seamlessly as they possibly can.

YS Chi:

In the past, in my era, becoming a manager was something one did by observing their managers and learning from that. Is there a more formal way to prepare these people to become good managers?

Rose Thomson:

I think there is and that certainly something that the HR function within RELX is working on right now, actually, because that's a universal need from each of our divisions. And I think the first thing that we really have to do is, is articulate what is the role of the manager? What are we actually asking managers to do? And once we're able to do that, you know, how do we think about the various stages in, I'll call it the employee lifecycle, where a manager actually has to do something. And that could be having to do a performance review or having a performance conversation or looking at pay and making assessments on a merit payment or a bonus payment, for example. So I think, you know, equipping them with what are those moments where a manager has to step forward and actually own some decisions in that way, but also, what are the tools, and how do we make it much easier for them to understand what we're asking them to do, and be able to do that in a way that they can do it at a time that suits them. Using using systems that automate as much of that as possible, I think there's a real opportunity for us to think differently about how we do educate our managers, how we equip them, how we give them a better experience, in terms of being managers, and that we continue to actually focus on the development of managers so that in this day and age where we are working quite differently to what we were doing pre pandemic. That ability to sit around and observe others isn't necessarily the same anymore. So I think we have to be more innovative in our thinking. And also really think about what does hybrid working mean for a manager? How do you, how do you build a relationship with your team, if it is virtual? And so I think the changing nature of work and the changing expectations of employees, is also impacting on the role of the manager that, frankly, we need to be able to get ahead of that and equip them to be able to do well.

YS Chi:

So rose, is there a way we can link between this other

point:

purpose to inspire, with the rise of manager concept?

Rose Thomson:

I think when I think about RELX, we hold such a unique position, I think we are a business that has a very clear purpose, and one that really resonates with employees values. And that's our secret sauce, I think, or one of our ingredients of our secret sauce. And I think the fact that we do have a clear purpose should be able to help our managers actually, and whether that's about a compelling proposition for candidates coming in, or a compelling proposition for employees, in terms of what their career could look like, in an organisation like ours, I think there's definitely a link there. And I think the more we can articulate that deep connection to our customers in terms of the value that we contribute to our customers, that drives meaning in the work that we do every day. And I think helping a manager, regardless of where you are in the business, and what role you play, I think if you can articulate "what value am I, every day contributing to the organisation that helps our customers?", I think that drives that engagement level, and that certainly is helpful for managers, I think. It's not like they're then having to really sort of make that up or do something different because that purpose isn't clear. So some organisations without clear purpose do that quite well. They either throw out a lot of money or other benefits, free lunches, and slides and all sorts of things. But I think what we have, which sets us apart, and that we should make more of actually is that very clear purpose that we have and the contributions that we make to the communities in which we live and work every day.

YS Chi:

Yeah, it really helps that RELX's businesses have this clear purpose for our customers and the society doesn't it?

Rose Thomson:

It does, yes.

YS Chi:

Let me switch topic a little bit to career progression. You propose that we look at our career progression less, like climbing a vertical ladder and more like rock climbing. What do you mean by this? And is, is RELX good at letting its employees make these so called nonlinear moves.

Rose Thomson:

So I always think about careers as a rock climbing wall. So there are handholds and footholds. You rarely get to the top by going vertically straight. And I think from a career perspective, each of those handholds and footholds are different experiences and skills that you get along the way. And sometimes, it makes a lot of sense to go sideways and take a handhold that might, you know, hanging out there on the right, for example, to get a different skill and experience that will actually help you move forward in your career. And I, really think that whole old fashioned view of career progression being a vertical pole - the vertical greasy pole, which is much easier to go down than it is to go up. I think consolidating our skills, really thinking about what skills and experiences that we can develop and taking the time to actually develop them well, so thinking about how long you need to be in a particular role to develop that skill and master that skill. And for me, your career is something that each of us individually own, and it is a collection of skills and experiences built over time that actually open those career opportunities and those choices that we make, and the way we think about where we want to go, what we're interested in as well, you know, what inspires us and what motivates us at work. The more you have that self awareness about what you're good at and what you're interested in, the more you can push yourself forward for projects and new roles and to really work on developing those skills and experiences. And I see a trend within RELX of that understanding and that approach to careers, which I think is terrific, because one thing that I really love is you're seeing people own their careers. You know, a lot of people sit back and wait for the organisation or their manager to say, "Oh, here's a role here, go do that", rather than actually taking that on for themselves. You know, our job is, as HR within the organisation is to, I guess, plant the flag poles to say, you know, here are what your career paths could look like. But it's up to each and every individual to really develop those skills and experiences, so that they can follow those if they if they choose to. So I think very broadly, in relation to skills and experiences and careers, and we have a lot of opportunity to do some more in this space, you know, we're starting to see a lot more internal mobility across the group. But if we really want to unleash the potential of our people in our organisation, we're going to be focusing on that a lot more. And when I look at RELX and the breadth of our our divisions the type of work that we do, there's no reason that if you join RELX, regardless of where you join RELX that you couldn't experience 20 years of diverse career opportunities. And our investment in our people is really important in terms of ensuring that we retain the very best talent, but also reducing our reliance on external hiring. The more that we open up roles across the organisation, the more that we think about what careers could look like, as I say, plant those flags so that people are clear as to where they could go and how they do grow. Everyone actually benefits, there is no downside to doing that. Well, and that's very much part of what I hope my legacy will be for RELX as well.

YS Chi:

Rose, not having a linear career progression, kind of makes me think about this personal choices that you mentioned that we make, right, whether that is about someone deciding to have a family, or that there is something else they need to pursue, or to take care of elderly, you know, people in their family. Sometimes we need to take a little step back, for personal reasons. Does this help deal with these ups and downs of our personal lives and matching it to our professional growth?

Rose Thomson:

I think YS, we can as individuals, we can never separate our work life from our life. It is it is a component of who we are. And I'm a firm believer in, you don't you don't march into an office, either metaphorically these days, or physically as it used to be, perhaps, and turn those things off. And I think we all have things that go on in our lives that need attention outside of work from time to time. And our opportunity, I think is to make the space for people to be able to be where they need to be and support who they need to support at a given time, without thinking that writes them off, and that their career has to come to a halt. Or that they're not the best person for a particular job at that point in time. And I do see that I think the attitudes changing. So for example, I think these days, I've seen it myself that where women who who are pregnant still are offered jobs, even though they're going to go off on maternity leave for a bit. And you know, when I was young, frankly, that just didn't happen. So I do see some definite positive steps forward like that. But I think that also comes down to managers and the empathy that we we also need to show for our people as individuals, and we still obviously have commercial deliverables that we need to deliver on behalf of the organisation. But I think we're having to think about talent more deeply...

YS Chi:

and probably more as a team, because if, you know, the rest of the team steps up, while one person is, you know, withdrawing a little bit or toning down a little bit. I'm probably using the wrong words here, that there will be other times when others will step up for them. And if we work as a team, then I think we can carry all of the the ups and downs together.

Rose Thomson:

Yes, I think that's quite right, actually. And, and that comes with having that psychological safety of being able to tell people what's going on in your life.

YS Chi:

Oh, that's a great point.

Rose Thomson:

And that you know you feel safe, to be able to say, actually, I've got this thing going on at home. And I need to, you know, whatever it is I need to be there. And this is how it's going to impact me for the next x period. And if we all recognise that actually, we all have lives like that, I think you're quite right people do step up and cover, you know, same as if you are ill, and you need to take some time out, it doesn't, doesn't stop you being a terrific person and a great contributor, right. And as I say, these days, holding on to our best talent, making sure that we're being very human in the way that we manage and lead I think, is more important than ever.

YS Chi:

Another important point is inclusion, inclusion to achieve diversity, which RELX takes very seriously. When we look at the statistics, RELX is an industry leader in this space, but of course, we can always do better. Can tell us how you look at this, and how we should improve.

Rose Thomson:

So I think about inclusion and diversity, well, obviously, they're very interlinked. For me, inclusion is you feel heard, you feel you can contribute equally to those around you, you can access opportunity equally, regardless of the characteristics that you have. Now, diversity, to me is the measurement of those characteristics. And today, that's how we measure diversity. The general approach to diversity is let's, let's measure people's characteristics. I think the next iteration of diversity is very much around diversity of thought. So by that, I mean, how do we get around the table and think about what the needs of our customers are, and have a whole variety of different people with different life experiences different, different geographic experiences, different educational experiences, to contribute to solving those problems for our customers, and to me that is diversity of thought, which I think moves us away from sort of that, that more obvious characteristics, measurement. And and brings us to a level where that diversity is really helping solve things for our for our customers. Now, I don't know how we measure that just yet. But I think I think we have real ambitions around increasing our diversity and our inclusion. And while measuring numbers of people with various characteristics is, is a really good way today, assessing progress. I don't think it necessarily reflects what organisations have achieved in terms of diversity and inclusion. If you, if you buy into diversity of thought actually is where we need to get

YS Chi:

Well, we have been trained for so long to do what to. has always worked. So if what has always worked has been more uniformity, then changing that to diversity is a significant transformation. And, and it is challenging. I mean, I recall starting my career, where it was all about uniformity, right? What has been proven, you keep doing it, right? So if male, white person with this degree and this experience has done this well, then you go out there and hire five more of those. And we don't ever give thoughts, or we never did give thoughts to hiring someone with different path. Today, of course, that has now finally changed. And we are more bold about bringing on people with diversity of thoughts, as you say, Now, is there is there a good way to measure diversity of thoughts?

Rose Thomson:

I think it's quite embryonic. You could look at people's different experiences and say, well, let's measure those. So for example, you know, those with college education and those without college education. The way I look at it, YS you know, we could have all sorts of diversity in terms of ethnicity, for example, but if everyone, if everyone goes to an Ivy League school, we're not necessarily going to get a diversity of thought. Whereas if we have that ethnic diversity, we have different educational diversity, we have different global experiences. So for example, you know, I grew up in Australia, I went to an Australian university, the way I think and the way, the way you think is actually different, because we have different experiences, and so we can bounce off each other. And we have enriched discussions and constructive challenge because we come with a different viewpoint. And I think that's what it is. I'm not sure, we can measure it now. But I'd like to think, you know, in 10 years time, we're a little more sophisticated about that, because that's the journey we've been on with diversity. It's the journey that we've been on with ESG. I am hopeful that actually we can be, as I say more sophisticated about how we measure moving forward.

YS Chi:

Right. It's going to be a challenge for all of us to figure out whether we can measure properly the progress that we want to make. Now, will some of these, achieving these metrics, will lead allow us to recruit, for example, more women in tech?

Rose Thomson:

I think the reality is that there just aren't enough women in tech.

YS Chi:

So the pipeline is rather dry?

Unknown:

The pipeline coming educated in technology is, is dry. And so we do need to think very differently about women in tech. And it's certainly has a very low representation of women, however, it is growing. So it is commonly seen now as a great career destination for young women, but that will take time for them to grow and to develop and to move into leadership positions within technology. What I think we need to do is think about far more innovative ways of getting women into technology. So I think about adjacency of skills. So what is it that we're asking for systems engineers to be doing? How do we think how do we articulate what those skills are? And then how do we think more broadly about where else could we get those skills from within RELX? So if we have, you know, a trusted high performer, young woman, who is demonstrating that they, you know, are analytical, problem solvers, and so on? Well, why wouldn't we give them a chance and actually move them into technology and say, actually, we're going to invest in you, we're going to invest, so that you get the technical skills that you need, but actually, from a baseline perspective, you've got the right baseline of, of skills. So for me, I see that as a real opportunity for us to think very differently about how we move women into technology. I think we need to change the language, so the way we talk about jobs in technology, the way we advertise for jobs in technology. Recently, we're starting to use technology to really assess the language we use in our role profiles. And in our job ads, we're also starting to challenge managers, in terms of what are you really looking for, because that unicorn, that you're saying, you have to have and that you've spent a year interviewing for isn't there? So how do we think differently about getting getting different skills into technology, and then investing in actually developing the real technical elements of what those roles require?

YS Chi:

Personally, I'm a little bit encouraged by some individual cases, I have seen at RELX now, over the past five or so years, where female workers who do not have any either technical background or computer science background, have pivoted themselves very boldly and courageously into learning, a couple of them by entering into, in house training programmes, to help learn how to code for example, and have made a dramatic change in their career path as women in tech. So I'm encouraged that we are seeing this as an opportunity also to identify people internally, who may not have had a formal education in this way. But like you said, have the raw talent or the interest, more importantly, to learn something new and make a change. So I hope that we do more of this.

Rose Thomson:

I think we've got some terrific examples of particularly women who've been able to pivot, I know, we have a number of women with English degrees, for example, who've gone on to become great technologists, you know, we really have an opportunity, I think, to profile them to talk about their decision making and the opportunities that they've had and how they feel about their career change and what opportunities it's brought and the satisfaction that they've had in doing that. Because I think the more we can encourage people to think more broadly about their careers going back to the climbing wall, right. You don't have to stay in the one swim lane. I think in an organisation like RELX. It's a perfect opportunity to say actually, I'm ready to do something different. I want to try something different. Give me a go. And, you know, I think that's terrific.

YS Chi:

Well, Rose, we could talk forever on this subject, because you know, we are both very passionate about talent, and how that really is the differentiator for RELX. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. Thank you so much for all the initiatives you're taking with your colleagues in Human Resource. And we look forward to having you again here to tell us the progress we've made in the future.

Rose Thomson:

Thank you YS.

YS Chi:

My next guest is Emili Budell-Rhodes. She's the lead evangelist of engineering culture at LexisNexis Legal and Professional. Her vital work promotes and enhances the best and the most sustainable practices in a technology focused company like LexisNexis L&P. She's also a great example of what can be achieved when one invests in women in technology. Emily, welcome.

Emili Budell-Rhodes:

Thanks so much for having me.

YS Chi:

It's very nice to connect with you, again, since we haven't seen each other in a while. You began your RELX career journey in our Corporate Responsibility team. So to say that you've had a successful career pivot is to put it very lightly. Can you tell the audience a little bit about your journey so far? And explain your role with this new title that is rather unique?

Emili Budell-Rhodes:

Yeah, absolutely. With pleasure. So my title now at LexisNexis Legal and Professional, as you said, is lead evangelist for engineering culture. As you said, I was part of Corporate Responsibility beforehand, joined LexisNexis in March last year. And so, in a nutshell, I'm a member of the global engineering team. And the role is about creating positive change, both in terms of our practices and processes and ways of working, as well as our culture across teams and the technology organisation at LexisNexis as a whole. And so a big part of that role revolves around community building. We're a rather complex global organisation. And so how can we come together across tech as a community of problem solvers and share with each other and learn from each other, in terms of industry leading best practices that are also rooted in our organisational values? That includes responsible AI, for example.

YS Chi:

So is there a way to look at how you simplify all this? Or is that your role to be conducter in the middle?

Emili Budell-Rhodes:

I like to think of myself more as a bridge than a conductor. And a lot of it is about connecting the dots. So it's, it's both thinking about systems, and processes and things like that, but but also about people. So how can we work together better? How can we have a shared joint narrative and mission? How can we create clarity around certain things? So So simplification is, is a big aspect of it, but it's also about capturing context, and sometimes embracing the fact that things can be nuanced, depending on the context that you're in.

YS Chi:

Earlier, I talked to rose about the importance of recruiting and inspiring women in tech. As someone whose career has already been inspiring, do you think that putting such an emphasis on supporting women in tech is necessary? And to be more specific? Do you think you can do this role particularly well, because you are a woman?

Emili Budell-Rhodes:

Who that second part is a tricky one. Let me let me try and answer that. So yes, first of all I do. I think putting an emphasis on supporting women in tech is necessary. We have a gender imbalance in technology, and I believe that unless we continue to do something about it, it's not going to fix itself. When you start looking at levels of representation of women, or people who identify as women in tech, you quickly realise that the issue is complex, because there's so much variation depending on levels of seniority types of roles, disciplines, geography, even which part of the business you're looking at. So I don't think there's there's ever going to be a magic silver bullet here. But that being said, something that I believe should always be the starting point, is being aware and being intentional, and then figuring out the best way forward for a particular context. But maybe, let's also step back a minute here and talk about why I think we should care about gender balance in the first place. In particular, when it comes to technology, and maybe that will also answer the second half of your question about me being a woman and me being in that role. And so, for me, personally, I mean that that comes down to one major thing. Technology is built by people for people. That sounds like a pretty obvious thing to say. But let's let's unpack that a little bit. Often, people equate the role of a technologist to somebody who writes code. And that's kind of like equating the role of a carpenter to somebody who uses a hammer. Coding is a tool. And it's a method, right? It's an activity. But what technologists really do is solve problems for people. And that means they'll consider the context of that problem, and the implications of the solution that they're proposing, in light of their own personal understanding, including, you know, their worldview and their life experience. So technologists constantly make choices that are shaped by their own biases, and we all have biases, that's literally how the human brain works, to optimise information, so we all do it. And so when those choices are being made by a group of people with very similar backgrounds and life experiences, they miss out on considering maybe how to solve a problem from a variety of angles. And that's, of course, not just about gender. But gender is a big factor. There are a number of societal and other systemic factors that will shape different pathways and experiences depending on your gender. And as technology pervades pretty much every single aspect of our lives, nowadays, the positive impacts of having more gender balance in the teams creating it can be really significant. The other thing, and I suppose that actually feels a lot more personal here, is that when you're feeling like you're the odd one out, or the only one in the room, that can be really challenging and can feel intimidating. When I first started my role, I was in a couple of forums where I was the only woman in the room. And actually one of the youngest people, maybe not, maybe even the youngest person there. And at first, I just kind of put my head down, even when I felt like I had something to say I didn't really put my hand up because I was intimidated. And when you're working in an organisation where innovation is central to business success, that's not a good thing. So as I said, there's no silver bullet. But you know, and so while establishing more balance in gender diversity can be challenging, you know, sometimes there are difficulties in recruiting talent, etc. It's really crucial to create inclusive psychologically safe spaces where everyone feels, they can speak up, and they're part of the team. And that can be as simple as reflecting on how you've run a meeting, for example, you know, who are you actually inviting? You know, who's, who's there? Who's in the room? Does everyone understand what the meeting is about? And what's expected of them? And are you giving everyone a fair chance to contribute? Or are really only listening to the loudest voices? So women are constantly told to lean in and grab a seat at the table? And frankly, that can be exhausting sometimes. So think it's also about offering a seat.

YS Chi:

And when they're invited to the table, how do you encourage them to raise their hand, even though it is, as you said, quite intimidating to speak up when you're the odd person in the room?

Emili Budell-Rhodes:

So I mean, there's a couple of ways to do that. I think when you invite somebody to something, you should tell them why and why their their contribution is valued. Because that helps with confidence. And then, as and when I'm actively facilitating a meeting, or have that level of input, I can also proactively reach out and call somebody out, for example, and say, "Hey, I know you're doing great work in X, do you want to tell us a little bit about this?" So it doesn't have to be very complicated. It's just about being aware.

YS Chi:

Right? That's great. You know, this is not how you envisioned when you first thought about making a pivot to your career, some three years ago, I think, how did that evolve?

Emili Budell-Rhodes:

Oh, it was a journey. And a bit of a challenging one, because that pivot was so significant into a completely new domain, and I still have a huge amount to learn. So the way I got started, and maybe you'll remember this, YS? It was because I developed a keen interest and passion for Responsible AI, in terms of how technology impacts people's lives. And I wanted to find a way to help build on what we're doing in that space across RELX. That in itself required a fair bit of patience and resilience on my part because it's always hard to get a new initiative started in a large organisation. And I'm also I'm not a data scientist or a developer. I have a background in social sciences, I spent a number of years in the nonprofit sector. And then I joined the Corporate Responsibility team. So I didn't have exactly like the profile you'd expect from somebody working on AI or technology related questions. Eventually, I was successful. So we now have publicly facing Responsible AI principles that I'm the lead author of, and we have a dedicated work stream in each of our business areas as a direct result of that work, which is pretty cool. There were a number of things that helped me there that I wanted to maybe dive into if, if that's helpful? So the first thing really was about having a concrete project or value proposition. And that was really the way in for me, because I had identified an area where I was offering to add value to the business in the tech space. So I had clarity around what impact I wanted to have, and why I wanted to work in technology in the first place. So you know, finding your why, gives you also the drive to persevere, even when it's not always super easy to get ahead. And then a couple more things. So one was actually just speaking to variety of colleagues and getting feedback was another thing. And that's something that's great about RELX, people always open to having a conversation, sharing their expertise connecting you to others. So networking, and using that networking as a learning opportunity was also really big in that effort. And as I was then finally doing the project, I became a mentee of our women in tech mentoring programme. And that was really a huge help, because it provided a dedicated space to discuss ideas and challenges with a mentor who was able to help me progress them, and give me the perspective that I was sometimes lacking. It was also a safe space where I could you know, celebrate successes, vent frustrations, that happened a few times as well and actually be okay about having a bad day.

YS Chi:

So you think that mentoring is a crucial part in the success of recruiting and retaining women in technology?

Emili Budell-Rhodes:

I do. I do. I wouldn't say it's the only thing because then we also have sponsorship as well, that is really impactful. But just on the mentoring piece, I think it's crucial to make time and create a space to reflect on what you're doing and where you're headed, both with your current role as well as your career as a whole. And a mentor isn't there to give you all the answers. It's more about offering perspective. And that's a really precious thing, particularly, you know, when everyone's busy running from one thing to the next. And actually, I value mentoring so much that I've become a mentor myself now. And some things that we don't always think about in terms of mentoring is that it's a two way street. So I'm always learning a lot from those mentoring conversations, I'm having my assumptions challenged. And that's a very healthy thing.

YS Chi:

What advice would you give people in terms of identifying a mentor?

Emili Budell-Rhodes:

Well, there's different ways of doing it. I mean, if there are formalised programmes within the company, then certainly, you know, speak maybe to the HR team or or look on your company intranet and kind of track those down. I think a lot of companies have them. At RELX, we have a number of different ones as well. And then I think, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be formalised. I've had a number of different mentors. They're just people that I hugely respect and want to learn from, and I've just reached out to them, and actually just asked them whether they'd be willing.

YS Chi:

They responded very positively?

Emili Budell-Rhodes:

Absolutely. I mean, it's a hugely flattering thing to be asked, it's kind of nice.

YS Chi:

Well, but as you said, it's a two way street. So for them, it is also a learning opportunity. 100% right. So this is just one of the many pivots you're gonna make, I hope that you will look for several more ahead of you. Thank you so much for joining Emili. Emili is a third person I know who has come from social science background, and has made a significant pivot to technology. And I think that, as Emili said, that pivot is not as difficult as you might fear, if you put your mind into a specific direction you want to go and find people to support you along the way. Emili, thank you for being part of this podcast today.

Emili Budell-Rhodes:

Thanks for inviting me YS it was a pleasure speaking with you.

YS Chi:

Oh, and we're very proud of what you're doing. Thank you. Thank you to our listeners for tuning in. Don't forget to hit subscribe on your podcast app to get new episodes as soon as they're released. And once again, thank you for listening.