Unique Contributions

A look inside the RELX business culture: learn what drives performance for leaders, managers and employees alike

• RELX

Share episode

In this episode, YS Chi speaks with Rose Thomson, RELX chief human resources officer, to explore the RELX business culture.  They unpack the elements underpinning the culture that unites our teams, making customer centricity, continuous improvement and innovation possible.

This is a fascinating discussion at the intersection of purpose, strategy and values. A 'must-listen' episode for anyone looking to understand RELX and how culture drives performance at all levels of the organisation.   

A video version of this episode is available at https://youtu.be/R4bt8WBUtqk

YS Chi:

Hello and welcome to an episode of RELX culture today. I'm particularly excited about this topic because for RELX, culture is quite unique, and we are very intertwined in what we do - our purpose, our strategy, our value, our execution, all. So today we have a guest who can talk about this with expertise, and that's Rose Thomson, our Chief Human Resource Officer. Welcome Rose.

Rose Thomson:

Thank you, YS.

YS Chi:

Why don't we start by first introducing yourself a little bit of your background, personal and professional.

Rose Thomson:

Sure. I'm Rose Thomson. I'm the Chief HR Officer for RELX. I've been here nearly four years now. My corporate career has spanned many decades now and in a variety of sectors. I've worked in technology, I've worked in media and entertainment. I've worked in financial services. So I've got a really broad background and seen a lot of things. I'm originally Australian, but I have lived here in London with my family for, well, coming up almost 20 years now.

YS Chi:

Really?

Rose Thomson:

Yes, and...

YS Chi:

You're not losing your accent. I hope not.

Rose Thomson:

Proud of my accent.

YS Chi:

Good.

Rose Thomson:

Still eat Vegemite. And so I'm married to Mark. We've been married for 30 years. I have two young adult children who are embarking on their own careers now, and it's a pleasure to watch them.

YS Chi:

Empty nester.

Rose Thomson:

Well no, they're back.

YS Chi:

These days kids seem to want to stay longer. Yeah, well, so all these different sectors, but always in talent.

Rose Thomson:

No, actually, I started my career in product planning and product analysis.

YS Chi:

There you go.

Rose Thomson:

For a very large technology company, and I was always drawn to the things that HR were doing. I think it makes me a very interesting HR practitioner, because I've had that experience in the line. I've relied on HR to help me. The reason I moved into HR is actually because I saw something done that I just thought was terrible. I thought I could do that better, so I embarked on my HR journey a long time ago. But I'm very humbled by the responsibility and accountability I have for our nearly 37,000 employees, making sure that they have the skills and experiences they need for their careers. That we're looking after them well, and that, we're able to be in a position where we're supporting our customers in the right way. I find that very humbling and a real pleasure to be able to play in that space.

YS Chi:

It is a pleasure, particularly because we have this very unique corporate culture. But before you go into that, I do want to remark that in my five different sector careers, the best human resource leaders have always been frontline people that have moved into HR, and learn the mechanics of HR. But really understood the business, understood the people Exactly. involved.

Rose Thomson:

HR can't sit on the side. You have to understand the business. You have to understand our products. You have to understand what the strategies are so that you can actually help businesses achieve their goals from the inside out. And for me, being in HR, I'm a business leader who happens to specialise in HR. I'm not HR, what I call HR, fluff and stuff....and that is what the HR function at RELX is I think HR functions, particularly over the last five years or so, are really changing, and they're now much more seen as a much more strategic function who can add value in really important ways. So for me, I look at HR and I think my contribution is driving competitive advantage through talent and culture... driven to do.

YS Chi:

Yeah, exactly. At the end of the day today, it is a fight of talent, fight of capability of human beings inside an organisation like ours.

Rose Thomson:

Exactly.

YS Chi:

Yeah. So let's jump into culture. What's the easiest way you can describe, when you go to a friend's house for a cocktail party and talk about - RELX, has this kind of culture.

Rose Thomson:

Let me answer that by saying the way I think about culture. I have two definitions when I think about culture. The first one is, culture is what you see and experience around you every day. And so by that, I mean the influence of your manager is the number one thing on how you experience the culture in the organisation. The second way I think about culture is that it is the defining characteristics of the organisation, and that's at a macro level. I think at RELX, the way I would talk about RELX at a cocktail party is very much around, we are quite unique in as much as we have articulated what we expect our culture to be, so we're very clear. There's no ambiguity about how we're expecting our leaders to behave, our managers to behave, and our employees to behave, and that behaviour is what culture is about. The other cliche that is used about culture, which I quite like actually, is culture is the behaviours that you're prepared to tolerate.

YS Chi:

Behaviour that you're prepared to tolerate. Okay, so you're saying that culture is really not about slogans. Culture is about how we actually do things.

Rose Thomson:

I think there are many companies who talk about having cultures driven by values, respect, integrity, etc, etc, honesty. I mean, personally, if you have to write down honesty as a value, I think you've got a problem. But for me, it's what you experience on a daily basis. And that will differ, even within RELX that differs. We have a very broad geographical footprint. Culture of countries plays a very big difference in...

YS Chi:

I hope so

Rose Thomson:

...how people experience their daily job. Managers influence that culture we have. We have great managers, and we have managers who are still learning, and so they influence the culture as well. We can at the macro level, at a RELX level, talk about what we expect our culture to be and the way that we expect people to behave. And then how do we translate that down into teams? Because that's where it actually, that's where the rubber hits the road. That's where culture becomes real, and that's where we can potentially have a disconnect between what we say our culture is and what it actually feels like for people on the ground. And making sure that we're building those bridges and we're building the right way of training and developing our managers and our

YS Chi:

So two things that come to my mind about our culture leaders to display our culture, I think is where we're focused. here. One is the unique contribution mindset toward our customers, to our community, to our partners. The second is this more recent display that we're seeing everywhere in the company, which is faster, better, cheaper, always, forever and ever and ever. Right? So how about we tackle the second one first? What do you think about this kind of new type of culture that is really now popping up everywhere in the company, about faster, better, cheaper, forever and ever and ever.

Rose Thomson:

So that is definitely our mantra, better, faster, cheaper, forever. And I think it goes to our continuous improvement culture. As an organisation, we don't do big change initiatives. We don't do big boil the ocean transformation. We believe that a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. And even as I think about my own team and the work that we're doing, we do one step at a time, and we try and make sure we make one thing better every day. And that approach, from an employee perspective, means they understand what we're trying to achieve. We're focused on the things that are going to make a difference, and that we're focused on making sure that actually what we're delivering is better, is more simple, is cheaper, because we watch the pennies as well. That's very much a...

YS Chi:

part of our culture too.

Rose Thomson:

...part of our culture, and it works. We're a steady company, we're a stable company, we're a predictable company, and that all happens because we're a well managed company.

YS Chi:

Right? So all those words do come to the same point of consistency, right?

Rose Thomson:

Yes.

YS Chi:

So, how do we make that not one off or once a day, but every minute? How do we create that consistency in the culture?

Rose Thomson:

We are a very fact based analytical company. We measure everything, and I think that's what makes the difference, because we're looking at those measurements on a regular basis. Are we improving? Are we making a difference? Are we doing it better, faster and cheaper? And how are we demonstrating that we are? So that ability to really think about what we're measuring, measuring the important things, staying focused on the important things, and holding people to account. This is also a culture where it has high accountability, it has high empowerment and autonomy. But equally, wehold people to account and having that responsibility and accountability, I think for people who are successful in RELX, it's the people who step forward and accept that accountability that really thrive here.

YS Chi:

One of the accountability that lot of people fear is something not working out the way they planned, right? To be faster, better, cheaper, forever. There's going to be disappointments, or some people will use the word like failure, right? Doesn't turn out the way you want it to. How do we balance that?

Rose Thomson:

I would say we embrace failure.

YS Chi:

I hope so. But it's not easy for everybody.

Rose Thomson:

We have an approach with our customers, sorry, with our products and with in my space, what we're doing with our employees about piloting. We don't try to do these massive, big projects. It's, let's try this, and let's...

YS Chi:

perfectly planned two year planned project.

Rose Thomson:

Yeah, no, we don't do those so, but we do say, we've got this idea. We think this will work. Let's go and find a pilot group, someone who's willing to have a go...

YS Chi:

agility.

Rose Thomson:

Does it work? Do we need to adjust? How do we adjust? And so that means we do it faster. We can then work out what we need to do to scale, if we feel it's the right thing to do, and we embed things quickly in that way. Part of the piloting approach is, oh, that didn't work as we expected. And it's much better to do those small pilots and learn that quickly and adjust than it is to do a massive two year project with bells and whistles and slogans, that you then realise, oh. And I've worked in organisations where that's been the approach, and I think from an employee perspective as well, where you do those big change projects, big transformation projects, they're labelled like that. There's a lot of uncertainty that comes with that for employees, whereas I think our approach, we're just going to try this and see how it works and then we will adjust. That's much less scary for an employee. It's like, oh okay, yeah, we're just continuing to improve what we're doing in the services and products that we're delivering.

YS Chi:

I think times have changed, and technology has enabled that frequent pivoting, frequent piloting, frequent you know, change culture is possible. But that has to always come with something steady, which you first talked about, right? There's something consistent that is underlying the culture of this place, on top of which there's this, movement, constant movement to adjust.

Rose Thomson:

Yes.

YS Chi:

So, having the cake and the icing on top, which are exactly the same, that's not that easy, is it?

Rose Thomson:

No, it's really not. But actually, I think because we can articulate what our culture is, and we're very clear about what our purpose is and our purpose drives everything that we do, and our purpose is real. We're not trying to create a purpose for people to believe in. You know, our purpose is very much about benefiting society by developing products that help our customers. And that's whether it's in the scientific space, in the legal space, in the risk space, even in events. The purpose, people really get behind our purpose. I think that makes it a lot easier for us to then be able to talk about our strategies, and it's a lot easier for people to understand what we're trying to achieve, because the purpose is so powerful in this organisation, and we have a huge customer centricity. Which, again, in my experience, is actually quite rare that we're very focused on our customers and on helping them solve their problems. If we overlay that with an innovative continuous improvement culture, it means that actually, we can be a great partner to our customers in terms of really helping them. Understanding what they're trying to do, and then how we can support them and deliver that regardless of which part of the business that we're in.

YS Chi:

So you just answered the question around unique contribution.

Rose Thomson:

And what we do impacts the societies and the Okay.

YS Chi:

Right? Which is the other part of our unique culture here. There is a purpose of why we wake up every morning and try to serve our customers, right? And it happens to be something quite unique for them. We do it uniquely... In a real way. communities in which we live.

Rose Thomson:

In a real way, and if that doesn't get people out of bed in the morning, then, I don't know. I think we're very lucky to be able to have that at the center of what we're doing and have our whole 37,000 employees line up behind that. That to me, in my experience, is actually unique in and of itself.

YS Chi:

We've been around a long time. Each of our businesses have quite impressive history. Some going back to 1820, some going back to 1810, and Elsevier's original company was founded in 1580, and there's this continuity of our customer relations and our contribution. How much do you think that actually helps in a time like now where things are changing so quickly? Yet we've had this longevity with customers. We have longevity with our many of our employees.

Rose Thomson:

Yes, that's actually quite a key aspect of our, if we look at our employee base. We have loyal, long serving customers and... employees, sorry. I think that is because they believe in our purpose and what we're here to do and what we try and achieve on a daily basis. We're stewards. When I think about companies that have been around for hundreds of years, we're stewards for the next generation and so yes, things are changing, and things are changing faster than ever before. But I think we're keeping up with that change, and we're doing it in a way that supports our customers, but also doesn't disrupt our employees. And because we are well managed, we don't have these peaks and troughs of massive hiring, massive layoffs. That's not who we are. We're very steady, and we we pay attention to that, so that we have that confidence that actually the business will continue to perform and will continue to be strong, and will continue to deliver outcomes to our customers.

YS Chi:

Not having those big waves, and ups and downs is, in fact, quite unique in my opinion. That means that we manage for the long term. Managing for the long term also means that, like you said earlier, we have to manage our cost basis carefully. So that we don't have to do massive layoffs or suddenly we find out we're massively short of talent. Where do you think that kind of culture comes from?

Rose Thomson:

I think culture is reflected by, it reflects its leadership. Erik Engstrom is unique, I think, in certainly in my experience as a CEO, in terms of the focus that he...

YS Chi:

That's an understatement.

Rose Thomson:

...that he puts on those things. Like I said before we manage our pennies, where we try to forecast what we're going to need. My job as the CHRO is very much about working with each of the businesses to say, what are the skills that we're going to need in the next five years? And we don't know what they're necessarily going to be, because things are changing so fast. But how do we prepare for that, and then how do we make sure that we're doing that in an affordable way, and that we're not...we're repurposing, and we're managing the shape of the organisation, the skill set of the organisation, in a way that means that we're not having to lurch from one thing to another, but that we're much more focused on what it is we're trying to deliver. I think that is a really important part of achieving that.

YS Chi:

Yeah, we don't have a lot of public profile among our leaders, starting with Erik, who has never given an interview in his life. Do you think that's also something that really helps with our culture of consistency?

Rose Thomson:

Our culture is very consistent, but it also is very low ego. It is very low bureaucracy.

YS Chi:

Yeah.

Rose Thomson:

We try and kill bureaucracy.

YS Chi:

We do indeed.

Rose Thomson:

Just having steps in a process, for having steps in a process doesn't make any sense. Let's, review...

YS Chi:

it's how you get faster and cheaper.

Rose Thomson:

Exactly. So that element of our culture, I think, is really important, because it allows us, it allows us to focus on the things that matter. Which are, what are the products and services that we're delivering for our customers? That approach in terms of, no company jets, no company cars, let's all catch the tube. No bells and whistles. We're sitting in an office today that hasn't been renovated since the 1990s but, it...

YS Chi:

It's ok, it works, it works.

Rose Thomson:

It doesn't matter, because actually, it's the environment. It's not the physical environment. It's the culture and what we're trying to achieve that actually drives people. We don't have slides, we don't have fancy slogans on the walls, because we actually don't need them. Because what we're doing is delivering great value to our customers, and I think we've intentionally recruited people that understand that, and that thrive in that type of environment.

YS Chi:

Yeah, so how do you think that the senior leaderships and all of the middle managers that actually do things every day, right? How do they need to, orient their own behaviour as a role model to the rest of the 37,000 people?

Rose Thomson:

In my experience, YS, it's extremely rare that an organisation can clearly articulate the skills, experience and big behaviours needed to be successful, but we've actually done that. We've written it down, and everyone within RELX has access to that extraordinarily powerful roadmap, which can be used to chart their development and grow their careers. It's been created by us. It's been created for us, and it specifically points to how people can write...

YS Chi:

and without outside consultant.

Rose Thomson:

...with no outside consultants. And so it's a framework that lays out how people can be successful within RELX, and lays out very set, clear set of expectations on what our expectations are of our leaders and our managers. We've distilled all those characteristics from an HR perspective into all, all our processes. Whether it's, you know, a performance management process, our talent management processes, our recognition platform. Whether it's our interview guides in terms of how we're hiring and bringing people differences. in the what we call 'RELX Leadership Excellence' is embedded in all of those processes, so that we continue to compound in a positive way what we're expecting, and people have that very clear view of what se need. So along with that, we do a lot of development for our managers, and that is very much what's called 'CORE' and that means that we're building confident managers who have objectivity, they're respectful and they're empowering. That's a programme that we've developed ourselves, again no outside consultancies, to help build our manager effectiveness. Help them understand what their jobs are, what we're expecting them to do. But also the tools and resources that we're providing with them to be able to do that well. And it's a tapestry. All of these things come together, and we have to make sure that the thread that binds all these things is that cultural piece and the RELX Leadership Excellence Framework, that's the piece that binds us all. And all our divisions are slightly the whole organisation. And the divisions different. I've been lucky enough to work in each of our divisions... are embracing that and embedding it in their businesses, and they're, I describe it very simply as sort of vanilla ice cream. Everyone's getting vanilla ice cream, but everyone puts their own topping on so that it's relevant and it's something that their organisations can digest. And for me, being able to articulate that means, as we move people around the organisation, as they move between divisions, which I think is a really important...

YS Chi:

and happening significantly more now than when I first joined, and even 10 years ago. It was so rare to see people move between divisions.

Rose Thomson:

...and we're really working on that because there's a lot of opportunity for us to leverage the experiences and skills in each of the divisions differently. The thread that I was talking about, that's what binds us all, and that's an incredibly powerful thing for an organisation to have. We review it and we revise it and we get feedback on it, but at the core, it's the core of who we are. And like I say it, it's immensely powerful for people to be able to access

YS Chi:

When you're inside the organisation. You can feel it. that. But it all starts with recruitment. Right? How do we convey that culture when we're recruiting new people to join our team? What is the best way in which they can quickly perceive that, wow, this is kind of a different place. They talk different language, or they they behave differently. How do we get that across to the people we're trying to recruit?

Rose Thomson:

We have an incredibly powerful narrative, but we do as an organisation, fly under the radar.

YS Chi:

Yeah, we're very modest.

Rose Thomson:

And even when I was recruited four years ago, I was like RELX, who? And so there is a bit of work that we have to do to get people to understand who we are, and why they might want to come and work here. But once we can do that one, that narrative we've worked really hard on, and it then has the divisional element of that as well. But being able to tell that story about what we do, why we exist, how important it is. Attracts a particular type of person to our organisation. Not everyone's going to thrive in this organisation, just as not everyone thrives in any organisation, but being able to tell that story, being able to excite people about our purpose, being able to talk about the culture and what matters here. I think, allows us to ensure that the people who do join us, join with their eyes wide open and able to hit the ground running quickly. And you know, there's no, what we want in that recruitment process is that there's no surprises or no OMG moments once people get here that we have misrepresented something, or we've not we've not been clear about what it actually is like to work here. We can always again, we'll always improve that. We'll continue to work on that. But I think we're doing a much better job in being able to tell that story in a coherent way, than perhaps a few years ago.

YS Chi:

In these years you have been with us and with the benefit of having actually worked in all four of the divisions itself, right? Not just from the headquarter, but inside.

Rose Thomson:

Yes.

YS Chi:

What would you say Rose, has been the most satisfying, rewarding aspect of these years so far?

Rose Thomson:

For me, personally, I do my day job as CHRO much more effectively now, because I've been in each of the divisions. I understand their customers, I understand their products. I understand what they're trying to do. I understand where they're trying to go. But importantly, I've met and worked with each of the leadership teams, and so I have a personal relationship with all of our leaders. I think being in a corporate job is sometimes hard because you can sometimes be accused of being disconnected from the business. But I think my experience having worked in all four divisions means I take that back, and hopefully what we're delivering, from a corporate perspective is far more relevant, lands much better, is more thoughtful, because actually we have greater insight into what's going on in each of the divisions. Then the other thing that I think we've done is, each division has an HR leader, and we work very well as a team. And so we're bringing the learnings, bringing the challenges, bringing the opportunities, and talking about them as an HR leadership team. And how do we go and solve for those? And what are the things that need to be put across RELX, and what are the things that are, actually this is just an Elsevier thing. How do we all help you deliver that for Elsevier? I think we're getting a lot more traction as a function, in terms of the things that we're able to influence and impact, than when we were all gloriously isolated.

YS Chi:

And you know that when you first joined, you had no idea that you would have to do these two roles at the same time.

Rose Thomson:

Yes, but you know, when you're in the midst of it, it's like, oh my goodness...

YS Chi:

You've always had two titles.

Rose Thomson:

Yes. And you know, on a bad day, I'm like, I'm not doing anything well, but I step back and I say, actually, this has made me so much more effective. And as CHRO, the in depth knowledge I have of our businesses, of the people, of our employees, of our products, it's only helpful and so on a good day, that's what I say to myself. On a bad day, it's like, oh my goodness.

YS Chi:

We cannot have this kind of conversation without talking about at least one thing that is so prevalent today in our world, and that's the word AI, right? What do you think? How is AI affecting our culture? How is AI affecting how we do things?

Rose Thomson:

So, it's definitely affecting how we do things, and it definitely will affect our culture. I think AI is delivering a new productivity equation for all organisations. The ways of working are going to be rapidly, are rapidly changing, and we're moving from automation to optimisation to transformation, in terms of how work is done. And my personal belief is that humans will never be fully replicated by AI. But how do we use AI to enhance and expand human innovation? How do we use it to augment and amplify our ideas? How do we supercharge a cycle of innovation using AI? How do we empower our people, increase our problem solving? There's a lot of positives in terms of what AI can bring, but the impact of AI on culture and employees, I think those of us who embrace AI will always be more successful than those who don't, I think that's sort of the baseline. But we're seeing jobs change. We're seeing skill sets change. We're seeing demand for different skills that even three years ago we didn't know existed. For me, it's how are we thinking about the skill sets that we're going to need in terms of buying those skills in? i.e. recruiting people or building those skills? We're lucky in RELX, we've been doing this for actually, quite some time......before it was consumer grade. So, we've got a

YS Chi:

Quite some time. track record and a lot of expertise in the organisation, and I think we're going to see new career paths. I think we're going to see different types of jobs that don't exist today. I think it's beholden on us and on every employee to think about, how do I stay relevant? What are the skill sets and different experiences that I need to go and get that will make sure that I do stay relevant, and that I've got a skill set that enables me to be agile in my career as jobs change and that curiosity. Within RELX, we have provided access to AI for every single employee, no matter what their department, no matter what they're doing, everyone can go and access AI and use it in their job. Part, you know, play it. Play with it, sandbox with it, all of those things, and we're also doing a lot of learning paths in terms of making sure people can use it. They know how to find it, that we're coaching them in terms of how they can use it. But as CHRO, I think about AI and the impact it will have on culture, not only about what are the skills and the talents that we're going to need in the future. But how does HR utilise the power of AI to reinforce and drive our culture? How do we use it to tie things together for employees? This thread that I've talked about. How do we build manager effectiveness faster using AI, and how do we ensure our leaders have the right set of skills to be able to lead effectively in this new world. And how do we make the employee experience better for everybody? And that can be as simple as using a chat bot to find a policy, or, whatever it might be. We can make things better, faster, simpler for people, using AI. It's both exciting and daunting, and a little bit scary, but I think if we get it right, it'll be immensely powerful. And so I, I talked to my team in terms of how AI could be a total game changer for us. Not just in how we do our day to day jobs, but how do we use AI to really turbocharge our culture? To really make sure that the steps that we've taken now to articulate that are really reinforced in all our processes, in all our ways of working that impact employees on a day to day basis. As I say, it's a bit daunting, but pretty exciting at the same times. Yeah, I'm not even sure what chapter of the book we are in with AI. AI is not a one time invention of a telephone or one time invention of a engine, right? It's continually evolving and at a faster pace every single day, in fact. I think there's a lot more that we don't know than we do know. But in my conversation with you today, it's very clear that the culture that we have been able to develop and install here seems to be a good one to tackle this kind of environment today. And I would say it might be like CCPP, consistent, continuous, pivots and pilots, right?

Rose Thomson:

Yeah.

YS Chi:

And there is something about the conflict between things, the steady and the continual change. Something about long and short, consistent but always innovating, right? And that seems to be the culture that we now enjoy, and that we enjoy it across all four businesses, and not differently from one to another. Obviously, as you said, with some unique characteristics to geography and the customers we serve, but I think I've learned a lot about what culture is to us and how fundamental it is to our success.

Rose Thomson:

Well, culture can't be replicated, so it's our unique selling point, really. It separates us from all our competitors, our ability to articulate our culture and make sure we're hiring people who are going to reinforce that culture. That can't be replicated easily by other companies. Our policies, our processes, all those things, can be stolen and reapplied and that's fine. You know, great ideas come from everywhere. It's about being able to bring those in and apply them to your context. But culture that's so much harder to copy, and that's what I think sets us apart and enables us to continuously deliver for our customers.

YS Chi:

And it seems like it's actually working, because it looks like we are leading in every sector in which we are competing and developing. Thank you so much for your insights on this, and more importantly, thank you for being able to establish this kind of framework, rather than being accidental, in a very intended way, in mere few years. I really look forward to seeing how much more we're going to develop in this culture area that is truly roots of our success.

Rose Thomson:

Thank you, YS. It's really exciting, really exciting to be able to work on this and have such a positive influence on the organisation.

YS Chi:

Well, we're glad that you're doing it. Thank you so much.

Rose Thomson:

Thank you.