Unique Contributions

Jelena Sevo - Driver of diversity of thought

• Jelena Sevo • Season 1 • Episode 7

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To conclude the first series of our Unique Contributions podcast, YS speaks to Jelena Sevo about diversity, inclusion and innovation, and what it means to be one of the most senior women at RELX. In her conversation, Jelena makes the business case for diversity and shares her insights into what more can be done to bring down the remaining barriers that still stand in the way.  As chief strategy officer at RELX, Jelena talks about RELX’s approach to customer centricity and what makes the organisation different. Her personal story, set against the backdrop of a country that was once defined by polarisation and the rejection of diversity, is an engaging window into how a female leader is driving innovation through diversity of thought.

This podcast is brought to you by RELX.

YS Chi:

The Unique Contributions podcast is brought to you by RELX. Find out more about us by visiting RELX.com.

Jelena Sevo:

If you look at gender, we have all been talking about gender for a long time. But yet you look at the numbers and in 2020, only 5% of FTSE 100 CEOs are women, which is a bit bit shocking don't you think?

YS Chi:

Hello, and welcome to Unique Contributions, a RELX Podcast, where we bring you closer to some of the most interesting people from around our business. I'm why YS Chi, and I'll be exploring with my guests, some of the big issues that matter to society, how they are making a difference, and what brought them to where they are today. My guest today is Jelena Sevo, Chief Strategy Officer at RELX, and I'll be exploring with her the topics of diversity and innovation. Jelena has lived and worked in Hong Kong, the US, Latin America and Europe, and is one of the most senior women at RELX. This gives her a unique insight into the topic of diversity, and in particular the meaning of diversity of thought. I'll also be asking her how this leads to better business outcomes and more innovation. Jelena, it's great to have you today. Welcome. Thanks for joining the podcast. You're based in London, right?

Jelena Sevo:

Yes YS, and thank you for inviting me, a real pleasure to join you today. I have to say that after facing less than a cheery winter, I have to say I was really looking forward to this podcast as a highlight of my day today.

YS Chi:

Well, going back a little more though, how have things been for you over these last few months?

Jelena Sevo:

Crazy, as I think the world best sums it up. I think it's been, it's been very hard for everyone I believe. But rather than go on the hotbeds, let me tell you a bit about the positive elements. I think we have all realised that it is still possible to have a very fulfilling and effective career by having a little bit more balance in life, and I have really, really cherished that. So I do hope as we go into the next year, and we get to this final and some level of new normal which is closer to what we know is normal, that we will still learn how to hold on to that bit more of perspective, and bit more of a balance.

YS Chi:

We didn't really know what could be done before, did we?

Jelena Sevo:

No, we didn't. We didn't really. We have learned the hard way. But we have as I said, I think there are many, many positives to be taken forward.

YS Chi:

Right, and pendulum always swings too far to each direction before it finds an equilibrium. I hope that we will find that equilibrium in a, in a rational and sensible way.

Jelena Sevo:

Absolutely.

YS Chi:

We're gonna dive into your role. But before we do that, I want to know more about you, your personal background, which is needless to say, very unusual. So this is what I know. You grew up in Serbia, you left home very young to study in Hong Kong, and then went to Georgetown in the US to study law. Then you decided to turn down the opportunity to do a PhD from Cambridge, and worked in Paraguay instead on conflict resolution and mediation. Then you jumped to another direction to get an MBA at Harvard, worked a few years as a management consultant, and then you join our group 10 years ago. Wow, what a background. Please. Let's start with Serbia. Tell us a little bit about the experience of living there, both prior to the war and during the war. And, what was it like to leave home to go study in Hong Kong at such a young age?

Jelena Sevo:

Yes, it's been quite a journey. I mean, I guess YS you have had a similar experience of living in different cultures. I'm sure you share this sense of living in a different culture really opens you up to very different experiences, and turns your life into a very different life than you maybe would have imagined living at the start. So let me start with my start of the journey. So yes, as you said, I grew up in Serbia. When I was a kid I heard about United World Colleges and I was quite determined to go. I didn't apply to Hong Kong, that wasn't my intention, I didn't actually even know that there was one in Hong Kong. So when I got a call and I was told, you know, we've got amazing news. We've got a full scholarship for you. But it's a college in Hong Kong, that's gonna find you. I was a little bit taken aback I have to say, and I really want to look back at that time, I really credit my mom. She looked at me, she took a deep breath, and she said, is this really what you want to do? I said I don't know, I think so, and that was it. I think the rest of my family thought this was insane. I was, I was a kid who had never left Serbia. I didn't speak great English or learned English in the state school in Serbia. I'm not even necessarily sure that my family knew what Hong Kong was. But my mum had this incredible sense of belief and trust in me. She just knew that if this is what I wanted to do, there was no stopping me and this was the right thing to do. And I have to say, it's been an amazing experience. We had about 46 different nations in a small class of about 100 students. What an amazing way to experience this incredible microcosm of the world, this incredible diversity of languages, cultures, different points of view. As you can imagine, it was a real antidote to what's happening in my home country. My home country, which when I was growing up was called Yugoslavia. I remember as a very happy place growing up, had gone through very turbulent times where very polarising language and very much of 'us versus them' rhetoric had taken hold and has turned into full blown civil conflict. So for me, the polar opposites of these two worlds, well, as you imagine, have stayed forever for me, and have actually inspired a lot of my, a lot of the way I process the world and think about the world today.

YS Chi:

Yeah, I left home at 15 also to go to a boarding school across the ocean. And I can imagine, but you know, because I had travelled so much around the world at that point, it wasn't as shocking as it must have been for you and my goodness, your mum. She really knew you. She really trusted you to send halfway around the world like that.

Jelena Sevo:

Yes, it's it's quite incredible and it has, it has taught me about this importance also of role models, and people who really believe in you and support you. My mum has always been there, and there's been other people in my life. But yes, without that, sheer trust and belief, I don't know whether I would have managed to do it on my own. So sometimes I joke. I have a two year old now, and I hope when he comes up, when he's 16 and comes up with some crazy idea that I'll have the equal level of support and trust as my mum did.

YS Chi:

I'm sure you will. Just so you know, you are the second person I know from Li Po Chun, United World College in Hong Kong.

Jelena Sevo:

Wonderful, wonderful.

YS Chi:

My previous analyst was also a graduate, and I know it had changed her life too. You also have an interest in history and politics and so it steered you to go into conflict resolution and mediation. Can you tell us a little more about that?

Jelena Sevo:

Yes, so after Hong Kong, I went on to study law. I thought law was a way of putting history and politics into some sort of coherent logical structure. I think I was looking for a way to explain to myself how the world works. And the attractiveness of law was it had all these rules, and it was logical, and it made sense to me. So I did a law degree. I went on to do masters of law in the US at Georgetown University. And maybe because of my background, and where I grew up, I was very attracted to this whole field of alternative dispute resolution, so mediation was was a very big field at that time. And then I took some of a detour and I was think, life takes you interesting places if you're open to it. So for me that was going to Paraguay, which was somewhere out of a left field. But essentially how it happened is that a colleague of mine from Georgetown was working on building the first commercial mediation centre in Paraguay, and he asked me whether I would come and help them write the rules and train the first mediators. I thought, you know, why not? I left Hong Kong when I was 16, why wouldn't I go to Paraguay? And I'm really, really happy I did. It was a completely different experience. Hong Kong was a shock to the system. But I was surrounded by other kids who were in similar circumstances to me by other kids in the college. Whereas when I went to Paraguay, there was a completely different level of cultural and language immersion. Now sometimes often I felt like a protagonist in the book Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy where everything is in there, then somebody put a little pebble fishing wire, and all of a sudden I could hear words and also when I was speaking. It was, it was remarkable. So I really, really enjoyed that. I think that was an incredible part of my life. Then I did as you said at the beginning, I applied, I wanted to do a PhD in law and economics and applied to Cambridge. And just before I went, I had a bit of a wobble. Serbia was going very good lately, it lead to an economic and political reform. And I thought, well, I don't want to go and do PhD for four years, or do I want to get stuck in and see whether I can make a change. So I ended up going back to Serbia. And I think all I can say about those two years is that affecting political change is way harder and way less effective than learning Spanish from scratch. Unfortunately, I left a bit disillusioned. But as I reflect on these two experiences, I think two things that I learned is, one is an amazing power of being an outsider. And sometimes one is an outsider by sheer who you are, sometimes you're just an outsider because it's a new team or a new company. And it's incredibly liberating, because you don't know the rules. No one expects you to know the rules. So everything is a fair game, you can ask any questions, you can provide any perspective. And the second one is, is getting to the core of what really motivates you or me as a person. And I still care very, very deeply about these big political, societal issues. But actually, the way I'm very impactful in making change is on a very micro individual level, which is what I try to do today.

YS Chi:

You need many, many, many of you to add the micro impact to really change the society doesn't it?

Jelena Sevo:

It does, but I think if everyone does their bit. I think this world will be, would be a wonderful place.

YS Chi:

And we are at a point like that on many issues around the world, aren't we?

Jelena Sevo:

Correct.

YS Chi:

Now, why business school?

Jelena Sevo:

That's a good question YS. I felt that, having lived through all these different experiences, I felt I needed to go to a place which would bring it all together. And for me business school, is just that. It brought all these different elements into coherent structure and made it clear to me that way I can impact change, is through doing business. So it's been, it was an incredible two years experience.

YS Chi:

Well, I'm glad you went to business school because it gave the path for you to come to RELX in 2011.

Jelena Sevo:

Exactly, exactly.

YS Chi:

So you arrived at RELX in 2011. You spent time at LexisNexis, Legal, and then at Elsevier and back I guess again, one more time at LexisNexis in strategy and sales positions. Here that you are now, you're heading the entire strategy for RELX. This also makes you one of the most senior women in the group. One of the issues I know you're passionate about is diversity. In many ways coming from such diverse background, you are a symbol of diversity already anyway. So how do you see diversity? And what does it mean to you?

Jelena Sevo:

Let me start with the business case for diversity and then I'll give you my personal perspective. I think from the business side of things, the case for diversity can't be any clearer. And it's not just because it's the fair and right thing to do in a sense that we should represent, we should be reflective of the society that we operate in. But there is actually so much research out there which shows the power of diversity on actual hardcore business metrics. McKinsey has been doing this study for a number of years where they look at the impact of diversity, looking particularly at gender and ethnicity on financial performance. There is a clear positive correlation with financial outperformance and the levels of diversity. There's similar studies being done on innovation and there is a clear link between increased diversity and increased levels of innovation. And also studies looking at decision making especially in times of crisis. Decision making leads to a much better outcome, it is much more robust when the teams making decisions are diverse. So for me the business cases is really really strong. And then obviously, there is my personal journey and you heard my journey around travelling from different places, living in different cultures, and unfortunately having that backdrop of a home country which has gone through the opposite of diversity, that has gone through very polarising times. So I can see both sides of it and I can see, to my own personal journey, the power of the diversity brings to the table.

YS Chi:

So, you know, there are very different types of diversity right? From the most obvious one, which is starting with gender, and they go through a race or age, background and so on and so forth, but diversity of thought, right?

Jelena Sevo:

Yes.

YS Chi:

That's probably something that many people don't think about. Why is it so important to you?

Jelena Sevo:

Yes, it's critical. And I have seen it in the business work so effectively, so many times. So I'll tell you a story when I joined LexisNexis. So I joined the team that was LexisNexis International, so all of our businesses outside of the US. And it was quite interesting, because the CEO of the business was a woman called Judy Vezmar. But her entire team, all these CEOs were men. So I was the first woman to join the team and the team has been stable on existence for some time. And then there was another lady who joined them around the same time as a HR director. And all of these leaders ended up telling us a year in, that just adding two more female voices to the table completely changed the dynamic of the discussion in the room. It just brought...it wasn't necessarily the things we said, it was the elements of around the culture that has changed, that has changed the way they were communicating with each other. And I think there are countless of those individual examples around the impact of diversity and diversity of thought and things that are being said, how that impacts the overall company. And I think if you take that to a broader concept around the concept of diversity of thoughts, there's this very fascinating notion called creative abrasion. The professor Linda Hill from Harvard Business School talks about, and the research they've done in truly creative companies in a truly innovative companies, is that they not only have a great marketplace of ideas, but they're very good at creating this thing called creative abrasion. Which is a paradox of being able to constructively debate, create and ultimately also kill ideas. And it's quite interesting because it's very difficult to create that environment in mono cultural teams, in the teams where everyone is the same. No one has a different point of view, everyone is polite, no one asks difficult questions. So you almost need that grain of diversity of thought, that tension to actually spark the creativity to the next level.

YS Chi:

Yeah, that tension is necessary. But it has to be really applied carefully, doesn't it?

Jelena Sevo:

Yes. No, no, exactly.

YS Chi:

Jelena, one cannot talk about diversity without talking about inclusion. What can organisations like RELX do as an entire entity to improve inclusion?

Jelena Sevo:

Yes, I mean. One, inclusion and diversity go hand in hand, diversity is really only just about representation, about the percentage of different elements of diversity you have in a corporate. But really what we are trying to achieve is an inclusive culture, and a culture and everyone feels psychologically safe and empowered to speak up and share their thoughts. And I think the corporates can do many things about it. I mean, we have approached it in a, in a very data driven manner, which is maybe obvious because we are a data driven company. So we have decomposed this complex problem into its integral parts and look to how to. What are the different ways in which you can improve both the diversity and then the overall culture? So we looked at things like, what are the levers of diversity? Looking at attrition, new hires, promotion. How do we actually really move away from talking about, this is a complex problem, to actually starting to chip away step by step at this problem. And then there is this other layer around the overall culture. So things that we are for example doing is looking at the language we use. It turns out that technology and products are full of language, which actually has racist connotations, which I wasn't even fully aware of. So things like master slave, black and white used in the context of positive and negative. There is much we can do to improve the debate around that and remove some of this language. And then there are the measurable ways in which men are starting to track consistently things like psychological safety and inclusion index, which gives us a much better sense of the culture of the company, than some of the more standard metrics.

YS Chi:

These things necessarily take time though, the approach that RELX is taking.

Jelena Sevo:

Yes, they do take time. I mean, sometimes I look back at this problem, I feel, if you look at gender, we'll all be talking about gender for a long time. But yet you look at the numbers and in 2020, only 5% of FTSE 100 CEOs are women, which is, which is a bit shocking don't you think? So I think there are two ways that one should probably think about this. One is the way around what are the overall things that stand in our way. And I think in that way, there is a lot of, lack of knowledge and potentially stereotypes that play in what happens out. And again, if you look at the research and data here, it's quite fascinating. So you look at the leadership capabilities data, Zenger Folkman which is a famous company which has 360 degree reviews. They looked at thousands of their inputs, and have actually according to their analysis. You may not like this, but women outscored men with 17 out of 19 capabilities to differentiate excellent leaders. So it's clear that the data shows that when it comes to gender, women actually score quite highly on capabilities. And that there is this other stereotype that the women take themselves out of race, because they have different priorities. And again, if you look at the data, and you go back to the research, the research shows the men and women actually have the same priorities and as they progress through their career, they want to add more balance in their career. So sometimes, I think we spend a lot of time trying to fix things, like teach women how to lean in. Where actually maybe the solution is, after our conversation at the beginning, we all need to bring more balance into our lives and that's actually the benefit for both men and women equally.

YS Chi:

In our culture, there's a saying that it takes two hands to make the sound of a clap. And I think that we need both of those to happen from the men and from the women's side as well. Fascinating. I could go on for hours on this with you Jelena, but we're gonna move on to your current role. Since joining the group in 2011, you've spent time again between Lexis and Elsevier and, and in strategy and sales. What do you think is a little bit different about RELX? You've seen a lot of businesses as management consultant, in the, you know, unique insight into the business. How do we operate differently than other companies?

Jelena Sevo:

I think it's really, really fascinating. I was reading yesterday in some of our materials. I don't know whether you knew this but in 1995, Forbes predicted that we're going to be the first casualty of the internet.

YS Chi:

I have read that since the day I joined this company and feel very, very vindicated.

Jelena Sevo:

Exactly. As we know, we are number 12 in the FTSE 100 today, so nowhere near what they predicted. So it's been an incredible transformation, and it's interesting you mentioned my time at consulting. So I think both at HBS, and at Bain, you end up studying a lot of companies. And it's always been quite interesting to me how companies went from this centralised to decentralised model and back again. And tried to solve the fundamental problem about what's the best way to make decisions. I think what RELX does quite uniquely, is that we have a very clear sense of direction and a very clear pace of change, which is driven from the centre. But the actual decisions, the customer decisions are made by the people who are closest to the customers. And that allows us this incredible sense of customer centricity, because it's very difficult for people who are not close to the customer to make those type of decisions. So I think that's what makes RELX really quite unique, that we have this lean centre with a very clear business philosophy and a very clear direction of travel, and then the actual execution, the actual nitty gritty of how we get there. How do we get customer centricity? How do we do everything in a way that makes the life better, faster, more productive for our customers? That all those decisions are done as close to the customer as we can get.

YS Chi:

Well, that's really, really well described Jelena. In the years I've been with RELX, I have watched alignment and lack of alignment between centre and the business units. And when there isn't an alignment, where there is just a pretence of an alignment, boy, it is a totally different experience. And what do you think is required for that alignment between those who are closest to the customers and those who are at the centre creating the large picture, large direction?

Jelena Sevo:

Yes. So I think what you need is having faith and having a clear long term view on the market. We have demonstrated this quite well in some parts of the business. Let's give you an example. For example, our legal business when I joined more than 10 years ago. At that point, we're still going through this journey of moving to online and making a wonderful, great online experience. But we had started talking about the analytics in legal analytics. And at that point, I have to say, I was feeling frustrated because I was feeling 'we're not moving fast enough, we need to do more.' But we had a clear direction of travel. And I look back now and I look at the new product that the legal team has launched, Lexis+, which has just gone live in the US. And it's incredible. All of these pieces that we have built over 10 years have actually come together to create a fantastic customer experience, and have moved that research and that vision from, I'm using this tool to find legal information, to actually, I can pinpoint the motion that works in this particular case. I can find what this judge really cares about. I can find which type of language works, is my brief structured correctly? And this vision of providing this is now reality. And it's incredible to see this journey, because sometimes when you're the beginning of the journey, you can feel a bit frustrated because you want things to happen fast. But not everything can happen overnight. And I think that's fantastic to see that journey over 10 years and to see the vision and then the hard execution that has brought it into fruition. And I think I can probably give you a couple of examples of that in the risk business. People think we we have now become very strong in digital identity, because we have done recently a number of acquisitions. But actually, we've been working on this for the last 10 years. So it looks to the market, like it's good timing and we've been lucky that we can now leverage the immense increase in e-commerce. But luck has nothing to do with it. It's been a long term strategic thinking, and then very detailed execution.

YS Chi:

Yeah, I do know that we had seen that transformation from pure content, to decision making content through data analytics. That was very clear. That was the direction we were going to go. But boy, it took many, many years for different corners of the business to all embrace this. I guess central to this is a word we often abuse, and that's innovation.

Jelena Sevo:

Yes.

YS Chi:

Innovation at RELX. Please tell us a little more. Go ahead and even brag about it a little.

Jelena Sevo:

Yes, I think we do an amazing job at innovation. And I think the two things that have helped us build this culture of innovation. So, one is the customer centricity and the other one is building the organisational capabilities to support that customer centricity. And if you look back at that time, and identify when Forbes said, oh my, these guys are going to be the first one to fall to the internet. You can understand why. We were operating in the markets in which we're providing excellent content, really high, high quality content, and we knew everything about law and the actual cases you need and what's the right global, and we knew everything about academic publishing. We didn't really know anything about people using the information, we didn't know what lawyers do.

YS Chi:

That's right. We always use someone else to sell as an agent or as an intermediary. So we really didn't know how our products and content were being actually consumed.

Jelena Sevo:

Exactly. We had no idea, we had no idea what these people were trying to achieve. We just, as you said, we we'r experts in curating the pas quality content but wha happened to that content? W were non the wiser. So thankfu for us that fundamental shif happened from switching from be ng an outsider providing so ething and then having no vi ion about where that goes, to ac ually looking at the customer an looking at the outcomes of cu tomer and what our customers tr ing to achieve. Really under tanding that has provided this ajor switch, and as you said it feels frustrating because y u feel like maybe we could ha e done this faster. But there a e some elements around t e organisational capability that I do think, just take patience a d take time. And I think t e element of organisation l capability that we have be n built over time, is how do e insource that custom r centricity. So as you know, e started by employing a lot f lawyers and employing a lot f doctors and all of the peop e who used to work in this. B t then you get to this problem f, lawyers know everything ab ut what lawyers do, but the lawy rs don't know how to buil a product. So you need to br ng other skill sets. You need to bring the best product manag rs out there, and people who h ve pre built digital products. ou need to be in the past UX people, you need to bring he best technologists, the best data scientists. And I th nk all of these different ele ents have now come to create his add to add functional enti ies where these different ski ls, and we go back to this ide of diversity of thought can e ist in many ways, this diversit of thought comes together in his multifunctional teams that can then really solve cust mer problems and really be ustomer

YS Chi:

Jelena, I have two questions. One more on the professional side, and the other, perhaps more on the personal side. The professional question is, what would you encourage the 33,000 employees at RELX to do more around innovation for the next couple more years?

Jelena Sevo:

Yes. I've encouraged them to break the problem that they have into small components, and solve tasks so that component move to the next component. I often talk to people and they think that innovation is, you know, coming up with this grand idea. They always think, oh, I need to be a Steve Jobs, or I need to be Elon Musk, and they need to try to get to space, and I don't really know how to get space. I think people get somewhat tripped up in that. Whereas actually innovation is, is anything which is new and useful. It's fixing the everyday things to make incremental changes. It's being committed to that long term journey of not getting frustrated, but just actually resolving the small issue. And once you do it better, you do it a little bit better for the following day. And I think for me, moments of personal journey is as well. I feel like 10 years ago, I would have told you a lot about we're not enough risk taking, we need to take risks, and we're not supporting risk. Whereas now I think we actually need more patience, more focus, and maybe that's a result of having a two year old, and spend a lot of time. It requires a lot of patience.

YS Chi:

Yeah, I think sometimes we think we only get one chance to get it right. And while that is a good discipline to get it right each and every time, we do need some patience sometimes to get it wrong, and then learn from it.

Jelena Sevo:

Exactly. It's all about learning. It's all about decomposing problems into small components. And then learning from them and taking it forward, and being even more objective and more data driven. When we talk about diversity a lot, I think a lot of the problems in diversity is people get tripped up in these conceptual cultura issues. Instead of thinkin about it as a problem, as a y other problem and trying o decompose it and look at t logically. Look at the data a d find a logical and rational w y in which you can experiment wi h little things moving forward. o yeah, I'd encourage all of o r employees to think that way a d I don't think that not just the job for product deve opment organisation. I thin every function should be thin ing like the prodcut developm nt organisation. HR, finan e, everyone should be thinking, ow do I do whatever it is I m doing a little bit better eve y da

YS Chi:

And as I promised, I have a question more on your personal side. A lot of people I run across around the world, look up to someone like you leading the strategy as a woman, especially. Going back to the question of diversity. What advice would you give aspiring young people who feel like they're outsiders, to become insiders?

Jelena Sevo:

My personal advice has always been, you have to start with what you control. So I think the most important thing is determining for yourself, what is it that you want, that I want. And don't let the society or anyone else stand in the way and don't hesitate, don't apologise. If you believe you're capable, you are. And that's a gift that my mum has given to me. I try and give that gift to anyone that I mentor today that I speak to. So that's, that's my biggest advice is, just charge on territory. Take control of your life. Don't apologise for it.

YS Chi:

I have a story to share now that you've said such wise words. There was a question posed by a very young student, college student, to an enormously successful businessman about what it was like to be a non white person. I will not reveal the racial profile of the person. This person answered by saying. Oh, no, no, no, that all depends on your perspective. You see, I am definitely the majority in the world in which I come from. Therefore, I don't consider myself outsider, I find my inside group. That was something just really stuck with me, and I think that you said it also in your own ways. So thank you for that. But above all, thank you for taking the time today to speak with me and to be able to share through this podcast with lots of other people. I can only wish you Jelena, continued good health and safety for you and your loved ones. And I look forward to seeing you soon back in person.

Jelena Sevo:

Thank you, and all the best to you YS, and thank you so much for inviting me and for recommending me as a part of such a joyful conversation. Such an interesting conversation. Thank you.

YS Chi:

And with that, we've come to the end of our first series. I hope you enjoyed listening to it as much as we enjoyed it. Over the past weeks, we've met technology experts, a pop culture geek, an ex sports coach, and other amazing business leaders. We've heard how they have journeyed to unexpected places, how they've learned to thrive in their careers here at RELX, and why the things they do make such a difference to our world. These are what we at RELX call, our unique contributions. If you missed any of our previous episodes, you can still go and check those out now on your podcast app. My name is YS Chi, I thank you for tuning in and look forward to bringing you the next series